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 Post subject: Re: Facebook page
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:08 pm 
Alpine Garrison Commanding Officer
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Special Operations Master

Joined: March 22, 2007
Posts: 268
Location: West Jordan
Age: 39
Henry,

Let me be very clear here. I don't appreciate the passive aggressiveness. I was very clear, I expect civil discourse and constructive discussion. I have replied to you and provided clear discourse, reasoning for process and I have asked for constructive discussion on the topic. I am very open to discussing this but it must remain civil. Please provide some context to your accusation that you are not being listened to or ideas are not being considered. More importantly please highlight these ideas that have been proposed that were not addressed.

I was clear on my feelings in the Q&A, Legion specific expectations on the forum or comlink are expected. When infractions occur they will be addressed. All members are welcome to join the comlink and I will leave that to each member to decide.


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 Post subject: Re: Facebook page
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:04 pm 
Alpine Garrison Executive Officer
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Sith Lord Apprentice

Joined: April 1, 2014
Posts: 430
Location: South Ogden UT
Age: 32
punkafide wrote:
I agree that there are always people complaining without ideas or suggestions. Unfortunately from what I have seen when you do try to come up with alternatives or suggestions you get bullied or people tell you that command staff were voted in and their word is law so if you don't like it then just get over it. It has basically stopped me from wanting to post any kinds of ideas or suggestions. Hopefully times are changing and discussions can be more civil.

I think the issue is that the comlink needs to be more structured like you stated. It is either for people to post anything and everything like they have been, or for event communication, or something. It is usually the only way I find out about things going on because it isn't posted to the forums or it is just easier, but there is often a lot of unrelated stuff and some members seem to post every little thing in their life on it. What would it take to make it more structured? That could be a good thing to draft up and put to a vote.

Also every election cycle the candidate talks about updating the site and forums, and it hasn't ever happened. Maybe put that as a focus since it is constantly brought up as a frustration.


Chris
I know that it may seem that when there is bullying that it is not dealt with. This is likely because the COGs do not announce when disciplinary action has been addressed with general membership. In the last election the COGs were accused of not doing anything until recently. That is really not true but to give it some context: Typically it is something like a 1 week ban from the comlink or something like that. The policy of the legion is very clear that we do not police facebook at all. The only reason the COGs have any sort of sway is if it happens on our closed FB page which is where we can lock threads etc. It was always my policy as COG to not censor people as much as possible and to keep threads open for discussion hoping that they could be civil adults. When this was not happening we would occasionally lock a thread but almost always re-opened it when it could be productive. You may not notice but action has been taken when this has happened even if you are not told about it.

Ive already spoken to my own thoughts of thinking the comlink could be more structured. One of the issues with that is who will be doing the monitoring of it. Henry mentioned that the comlink is a "social mess" and trust me when I say when people post their WIP we constantly remind people to make a designated build thread. Just trying to keep discussions civil on the comlink can be a full time job let alone policing everything that is posted there. If we restrict what the Comlink is too much, then it is no longer a place for like minded individuals to post that picture where they just made "Order 66" at Burger King or other fun silly things like that(which is one of the things the membership indicated they wanted). For every 1 person who absolutely hates the comlink and quits because of drama (some of whom cause the drama by doing so after a long post about how its broken), there are 10 people who give posts a like/love/haha.

Regarding your proposal to draft some more clear guidelines for the comlink to put to a vote, I would encourage you to do so. One thing to consider is posting it where Cadets can see as it is of huge benefit to them who may have never gotten used to a forum setting. If there was a proposal, and discussion, rather than just asking for change and then accusing the command staff of ignoring you it is likely to go further to actually make changes happen.

As for updating the website to be more mobile friendly and accessible. In Alpine Garrison it has, for as long as I know, been a one person job. Handy has built an amazing website that for, despite some flaws, is much better than other garrisons have access to. For as long as I have been a member there have been updates ongoing but trust me when I say it is often times a thankless and huge task. Handy is a very active guy(as anyone who knows him knows) and the garrison is a volunteer organization. I dont want to put any sort of time table on him regarding updates when he is already volunteering so much as is. With him being the only administrator of the website (and only Jason and I having moderator abilities) and it being all volunteer, it may take a while for that to happen. Mike maybe you can speak to this?

Just a note that I have found helpful- If you "unfollow" the people posting "every little thing" as you indicated you do not like, the facebook notifications are far fewer.

Garrison Executive Officer
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.


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 Post subject: Re: Facebook page
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:52 pm 
Alpine Garrison Member
Sith Lord 1st Class

Joined: September 9, 2013
Posts: 115
Location: Moab, UT
Age: 33
Drast wrote:
Chris
I know that it may seem that when there is bullying that it is not dealt with. This is likely because the COGs do not announce when disciplinary action has been addressed with general membership. In the last election the COGs were accused of not doing anything until recently. That is really not true but to give it some context: Typically it is something like a 1 week ban from the comlink or something like that. The policy of the legion is very clear that we do not police facebook at all. The only reason the COGs have any sort of sway is if it happens on our closed FB page which is where we can lock threads etc. It was always my policy as COG to not censor people as much as possible and to keep threads open for discussion hoping that they could be civil adults. When this was not happening we would occasionally lock a thread but almost always re-opened it when it could be productive. You may not notice but action has been taken when this has happened even if you are not told about it.

Ive already spoken to my own thoughts of thinking the comlink could be more structured. One of the issues with that is who will be doing the monitoring of it. Henry mentioned that the comlink is a "social mess" and trust me when I say when people post their WIP we constantly remind people to make a designated build thread. Just trying to keep discussions civil on the comlink can be a full time job let alone policing everything that is posted there. If we restrict what the Comlink is too much, then it is no longer a place for like minded individuals to post that picture where they just made "Order 66" at Burger King or other fun silly things like that(which is one of the things the membership indicated they wanted). For every 1 person who absolutely hates the comlink and quits because of drama (some of whom cause the drama by doing so after a long post about how its broken), there are 10 people who give posts a like/love/haha.

Regarding your proposal to draft some more clear guidelines for the comlink to put to a vote, I would encourage you to do so. One thing to consider is posting it where Cadets can see as it is of huge benefit to them who may have never gotten used to a forum setting. If there was a proposal, and discussion, rather than just asking for change and then accusing the command staff of ignoring you it is likely to go further to actually make changes happen.

As for updating the website to be more mobile friendly and accessible. In Alpine Garrison it has, for as long as I know, been a one person job. Handy has built an amazing website that for, despite some flaws, is much better than other garrisons have access to. For as long as I have been a member there have been updates ongoing but trust me when I say it is often times a thankless and huge task. Handy is a very active guy(as anyone who knows him knows) and the garrison is a volunteer organization. I dont want to put any sort of time table on him regarding updates when he is already volunteering so much as is. With him being the only administrator of the website (and only Jason and I having moderator abilities) and it being all volunteer, it may take a while for that to happen. Mike maybe you can speak to this?

Just a note that I have found helpful- If you "unfollow" the people posting "every little thing" as you indicated you do not like, the facebook notifications are far fewer.


I'm not saying that I don't think anything has been done about bullying posts. I have contacted the COGS a few times and have always gotten a response and it is always stopped, so that wasn't my intention with the post. Just because during the elections someone else said the COGS don't do anything doesn't mean I feel that way. So if that is what you got out of that it wasn't my intention. What I meant was that I don't want to make suggestions about things and then have people attack and bully to where I need to have to contact a COG. So I try to just not offer up as many suggestions and stay quiet unless I feel like I really need to chime in anymore.

As far as the Comlink goes you were the one that said that it was unstructured so I thought saying that we maybe structure it or draft something up would be a good idea. I didn't think it was my place to draw up some sort of draft or policy documents as I am not a member of command. I figured that would be stepping out of bounds so I suggested it to a member of command instead.

My post in no way mentioned Handy or any of the work he does or does not do. I agree that I enjoy our forums more than any others. I know he has spent time and money doing this job. I just also know how often I see people complain about the forums, that they like Facebook better, that it isn't mobile friendly. That is in no way of a reflection on Handy, but the nature of forums in general. And as I said it is always one of the main questions and part of the platform that people seeking the CO job talk about. So I suggested maybe to see what it would take to actually get it more mobile friendly and updated.

Also while I understand that this is all voluntary I have to say that everyone knows what they volunteered for. If Handy is volunteering to run the website and pay for that then he signed up willingly and has the option to keep doing it or not. Same with any other position in the Garrison. When I hear people say well I didn't get this done, or well that is too much time, or whatnot then it just sounds like excuses. Even as just a volunteer you should live up to the expectations, and if you can't fulfill them then step aside. No one forced anyone to sign up for any of these command positions, and no one is forcing anyone to stay in them. I don't volunteer or become part of command because I know I don't have the time to dedicate to the role and do it like I should.

I know some of my ideas or things I say may make me unpopular, that isn't my intention. And I try my hardest to word things eloquently so it doesn't sound confrontational, which isn't always easy with written word. I am just trying to discuss things that I know are frustrations for people so we can all come to a compromise or agreement and help mend some wounds and bring everyone forward together.

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 Post subject: Re: Facebook page
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:10 pm 
Alpine Garrison Executive Officer
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Sith Lord Apprentice

Joined: April 1, 2014
Posts: 430
Location: South Ogden UT
Age: 32
punkafide wrote:
I'm not saying that I don't think anything has been done about bullying posts. I have contacted the COGS a few times and have always gotten a response and it is always stopped, so that wasn't my intention with the post. Just because during the elections someone else said the COGS don't do anything doesn't mean I feel that way. So if that is what you got out of that it wasn't my intention. What I meant was that I don't want to make suggestions about things and then have people attack and bully to where I need to have to contact a COG. So I try to just not offer up as many suggestions and stay quiet unless I feel like I really need to chime in anymore.

As far as the Comlink goes you were the one that said that it was unstructured so I thought saying that we maybe structure it or draft something up would be a good idea. I didn't think it was my place to draw up some sort of draft or policy documents as I am not a member of command. I figured that would be stepping out of bounds so I suggested it to a member of command instead.

My post in no way mentioned Handy or any of the work he does or does not do. I agree that I enjoy our forums more than any others. I know he has spent time and money doing this job. I just also know how often I see people complain about the forums, that they like Facebook better, that it isn't mobile friendly. That is in no way of a reflection on Handy, but the nature of forums in general. And as I said it is always one of the main questions and part of the platform that people seeking the CO job talk about. So I suggested maybe to see what it would take to actually get it more mobile friendly and updated.

Also while I understand that this is all voluntary I have to say that everyone knows what they volunteered for. If Handy is volunteering to run the website and pay for that then he signed up willingly and has the option to keep doing it or not. Same with any other position in the Garrison. When I hear people say well I didn't get this done, or well that is too much time, or whatnot then it just sounds like excuses. Even as just a volunteer you should live up to the expectations, and if you can't fulfill them then step aside. No one forced anyone to sign up for any of these command positions, and no one is forcing anyone to stay in them. I don't volunteer or become part of command because I know I don't have the time to dedicate to the role and do it like I should.

I know some of my ideas or things I say may make me unpopular, that isn't my intention. And I try my hardest to word things eloquently so it doesn't sound confrontational, which isn't always easy with written word. I am just trying to discuss things that I know are frustrations for people so we can all come to a compromise or agreement and help mend some wounds and bring everyone forward together.


It definitely can be taken wrong with written word, but I appreciate the dialogue. I hope I didnt come off as if I was directing my response directly to you but rather to the dozen or so people who may read this thread.

In regards to the bullying, you may not have stated that nothing has been done but others have. My response was more in general to those who complain that nothing is ever done.
I did say that the comlink does lack the structure that it could. However I do not feel that it needs to be restructured personally. If the majority of the membership did want this then I would be happy to work on that. The simple fact is that most people are happy with the comlink the way it is, and there are only a handful of people who are calling for something different. As a member of the garrison you are definitely able to make suggestions, and drafting something up, in my opinion would not be stepping out of bounds but rather taking the initiative of what you think is important. It is a huge task to do.

I know you did not mention Handy specifically, I hope my response didnt sound like he was being called out. But to ask for the CO to do something about the website and the functionality of the site does specifically pertain to him.

Regarding your comment on volunteering, It may sound like an excuse but it is just the fact of the matter. You say that if people cannot meet the expectations of their position then they should step aside. That is your opinion, mine is that if you dont feel leaders are meeting your expectations then step up and do something about it. Either run against them and win, or work with them to make change happen. (not directed at you Chris) but if all you do is complain that things arent changing fast enough, or the job isnt getting done good enough then you are only adding to problems.

Garrison Executive Officer
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.


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 Post subject: Re: Facebook page
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:04 pm 
Alpine Garrison Member
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Biker Scout Apprentice

Joined: February 21, 2014
Posts: 498
Location: Midvale
Age: 36
Are we still going on about this? :D

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